Any clarification if this can be upgraded to non-S SKUs (Home or Pro)? I don't think this even does x86 emulation as it would only run apps from the store which IIRC compile native ARM versions by default.
As the shameful owner of a Dell XPS 12 9250 I think you'd quickly have a change of heart. It makes a portable machine suddenly no longer portable, in effect.
Hey, I have the 9250. I love that thing, I use it to play games on the airplane and all sorts of media consumption. You are right though, battery life is awful. Probably less than half of what dell promised.
I figured at the time if you wanted good battery life to get something like an iPad. However, there isn’t much the iPad can do that my iPhone can’t do and I wanted to be able do more advanced stuff that can be done with a ‘normal’ windows computer.
I don't know why you believe that, but you're flat-out wrong. If you want full Windows 10 Pro, you can upgrade (for free if it's like the other SD 835 releases recently). No VM required. They ported Windows 10 to ARM, and "S" isn't the only version available. If you upgrade to Pro you can run Win32 x86 software, too, via the Windows on ARM translation layer. Obviously performance won't be as good as native ARM compiled software, but it's a hybrid approach rather than pure emulation so it works surprisingly well. All of the APIs are native so that helps a lot.
Also, to answer OEMG's other question: not all Store apps are true UWP. Anything repackaged with Desktop App Converter would still be x86. So even Windows 10 S ARM might have use for the WoA binary translation. Currently the translation layer only supports 32-bit x86 programs, but given the mobile SoC that's not a big deal. I'm not sure if that's purely a software limitation or if it's not possible with the current-gen Snapdragons. They will have to add it at some point, as the ARM systems go higher-spec over time.
"I don't know why you believe that, but you're flat-out wrong. If you want full Windows 10 Pro, you can upgrade (for free if it's like the other SD 835 releases recently). No VM required. They ported Windows 10 to ARM, and "S" isn't the only version available. If you upgrade to Pro you can run Win32 x86 software, too, via the Windows on ARM translation layer." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only Windows Store apps can be run through the x86 translation layer and only Windows 10 S can be run on the Qualcomm Snapdragon 835
If you have a link to any "official" information contradicting this, please provide a link for us all as that would be great news for everyone
"HP and Asus’ devices will include Windows 10 S, designed to only run apps from the Windows Store, but users will be able to upgrade to Windows 10 Pro free of charge (for now) to get access to the full desktop apps. Microsoft has natively compiled Windows 10 to run on ARM chipsets, so all Windows processes, Edge, and the shell all run natively without emulation. Microsoft has also looked at the top third-party desktop applications and natively recompiled a set of system DLLs that they rely on to ensure performance is solid."
OEMG -- your statement is true regarding UWP applications. However, the Windows Store at this time probably has more traditional x86 apps than UWP, ARM-ready apps.
Actually, it's not a fail. This is what Windows RT should have had... a way out of the sandbox. As others mention, Windows 10 S, even ARM edition, can be upgraded to Pro. I'm also very interested in finding out if the open source desktop apps that were recompiled to run on "jailbroken" RT devices will run on Windows 10 ARM Pro. I suspect they will run just fine, but there is always a chance Microsoft still left some stupid restriction on these systems.
It seems to be symmetrical though. It may not be symmetrical on 2 axes, but it should be symmetrical on the axis going through the webcam and probably also point symmetrical. But that is hard to judge and I haven't seen any mention of bezel size in actual units.
Same price but probably 5 times the battery life and a standby great than the 12 hours a smal windows computer manages. Make no mistake, these things will slaughter intel computers in battery life. If Microsoft can find a niche in a user category that has enough software that runs well on this thing, then they could succeed.
I can get almost 10 hours on an Atom Windows tablet but that's a lot slower than a Core M. If these ARM PCs could be a big hit if they have equivalent UI performance to a Core M with 2x-3x the battery life.
They don't stand a chance really. From what we know from reviews of ASUS Nova Go, these devices have a clear delay in processing anything and running a Chrome browser with a lot of tabs slows it down to a halt.
The pricing is too close to the cheapest Surface Pro. I'd gladly give up 20 hours of battery life for 8 hours with full x86 compatibility, given that UWP/Metro apps are so little in number and lacking in quality. I've got a bad feeling this is Surface RT all over again.
Windows on ARM is an interesting option. I like the idea of being able to pick a CPU platform that suits my needs so pulling ARM into what was once only an x86 world can end up being good for consumers. The problem I see with it right now is the translation layer that harms performance and the lack of 64-bit support in a world that is otherwise pretty much all in on 64-bit, but there's really no other way around those problems right now while we're in a transitional state and those problems will probably persist as long as we have x86 and ARM side-by-side like this.
Win10s is superb for customers like grandparents, schools, corporate bosses and so on with people that Are not so good with computers. They Are more safe and easier to use than normal Windows machines. And if the battery time is longer, the better. If you Are making movies, or Gaming or other that needs a lot of power, then this is not for you. But really good product to spesific tasks. For example a salesman can use this to show powerpoint not stop a whole work day without any external power.
That I agree with. This machine would be great if you mainly use Office and do web browsing. I guess smaller x86 apps could be usable if the code translation wasn't too slow. At $799 it's too expensive, it should be $599 to compete against iPad Pros.
If you need niche x86 apps like scientific and engineering packages, a Surface Pro or even a cheap Atom tablet would be a better choice.
I think a Chromebook might be a better device for this use case - though most don't have the endurance this does, they run so smooth and fast for the grandparent/web set.
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OEMG - Monday, January 8, 2018 - link
Any clarification if this can be upgraded to non-S SKUs (Home or Pro)? I don't think this even does x86 emulation as it would only run apps from the store which IIRC compile native ARM versions by default.Bullwinkle-J-Moose - Monday, January 8, 2018 - link
No, it cannot be upgraded to any "standard" version of WindowsI am also not aware of any software plans to run a real copy in a VM
Install a copy of Windows 10 S on a spare drive to see just how bad it really is
You will find it on the Fall Creators Update ISO
I'd take a 3 hour run time over this every day of the week
lmcd - Monday, January 8, 2018 - link
As the shameful owner of a Dell XPS 12 9250 I think you'd quickly have a change of heart. It makes a portable machine suddenly no longer portable, in effect.Zeratul56 - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
Hey, I have the 9250. I love that thing, I use it to play games on the airplane and all sorts of media consumption. You are right though, battery life is awful. Probably less than half of what dell promised.I figured at the time if you wanted good battery life to get something like an iPad. However, there isn’t much the iPad can do that my iPhone can’t do and I wanted to be able do more advanced stuff that can be done with a ‘normal’ windows computer.
Alexvrb - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
I don't know why you believe that, but you're flat-out wrong. If you want full Windows 10 Pro, you can upgrade (for free if it's like the other SD 835 releases recently). No VM required. They ported Windows 10 to ARM, and "S" isn't the only version available. If you upgrade to Pro you can run Win32 x86 software, too, via the Windows on ARM translation layer. Obviously performance won't be as good as native ARM compiled software, but it's a hybrid approach rather than pure emulation so it works surprisingly well. All of the APIs are native so that helps a lot.Also, to answer OEMG's other question: not all Store apps are true UWP. Anything repackaged with Desktop App Converter would still be x86. So even Windows 10 S ARM might have use for the WoA binary translation. Currently the translation layer only supports 32-bit x86 programs, but given the mobile SoC that's not a big deal. I'm not sure if that's purely a software limitation or if it's not possible with the current-gen Snapdragons. They will have to add it at some point, as the ARM systems go higher-spec over time.
Hurr Durr - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
He's a flat out psycho pimping out his bastardized XP version, what would you expect.Bullwinkle-J-Moose - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
Troll much?Hurr Durr - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
I'm not buying your bullshit, calm down psycho.Bullwinkle-J-Moose - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
"I don't know why you believe that, but you're flat-out wrong. If you want full Windows 10 Pro, you can upgrade (for free if it's like the other SD 835 releases recently). No VM required. They ported Windows 10 to ARM, and "S" isn't the only version available. If you upgrade to Pro you can run Win32 x86 software, too, via the Windows on ARM translation layer."------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only Windows Store apps can be run through the x86 translation layer and only Windows 10 S can be run on the Qualcomm Snapdragon 835
If you have a link to any "official" information contradicting this, please provide a link for us all as that would be great news for everyone
Bullwinkle-J-Moose - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
Alexvrb, you are thinking of the Microsoft notebook upgrade from Windows 10 S to ProThat was an X86 notebook and this is NOT!!!
Solidstate89 - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
You're wrong."HP and Asus’ devices will include Windows 10 S, designed to only run apps from the Windows Store, but users will be able to upgrade to Windows 10 Pro free of charge (for now) to get access to the full desktop apps. Microsoft has natively compiled Windows 10 to run on ARM chipsets, so all Windows processes, Edge, and the shell all run natively without emulation. Microsoft has also looked at the top third-party desktop applications and natively recompiled a set of system DLLs that they rely on to ensure performance is solid."
https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/5/16737288/micros...
Bullwinkle-J-Moose - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
Thanks for the Link Solidstate89That is the first info I've seen about this
Many games won't work
Most 3rd party antivirus won't work
A lot of 32 bit apps will not be compatible
64-bit Windows apps aren’t supported
but hey, with 20 hour battery life, i could...........????
Yeah, we really need an in depth review to see what is possible
ANANTECH,
PLEASE review the PRO version of this abomination and list as many limitations as you can find
There will be a lot of angry customers if they believe this is a complete X86 replacement, but still, I'd like to know what it CAN and CANNOT do
There is no need to review the 10S version as the limitations can be reviewed by anyone in the Fall Creators ISO on any modern X86 computer
lmcd - Monday, January 8, 2018 - link
OEMG -- your statement is true regarding UWP applications. However, the Windows Store at this time probably has more traditional x86 apps than UWP, ARM-ready apps.Lolimaster - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
So it's a facelift of Window 8.1 ARM, so fail.domboy - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
Actually, it's not a fail. This is what Windows RT should have had... a way out of the sandbox. As others mention, Windows 10 S, even ARM edition, can be upgraded to Pro. I'm also very interested in finding out if the open source desktop apps that were recompiled to run on "jailbroken" RT devices will run on Windows 10 ARM Pro. I suspect they will run just fine, but there is always a chance Microsoft still left some stupid restriction on these systems.lazarpandar - Monday, January 8, 2018 - link
That bezel is.... not symmetric? And large. Ugly.thecoolnamesweretaken - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
People making comments about sizes are design lemmings.piroroadkill - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
You need large bezels on a tablet.Death666Angel - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
It seems to be symmetrical though. It may not be symmetrical on 2 axes, but it should be symmetrical on the axis going through the webcam and probably also point symmetrical. But that is hard to judge and I haven't seen any mention of bezel size in actual units.Mikewind Dale - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
Can these machines run Linux? E.g. Ubuntu?nerd1 - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
Who in right mind will buy this? The pricing is on par with proper core devices!Zeratul56 - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
Same price but probably 5 times the battery life and a standby great than the 12 hours a smal windows computer manages. Make no mistake, these things will slaughter intel computers in battery life. If Microsoft can find a niche in a user category that has enough software that runs well on this thing, then they could succeed.serendip - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
I can get almost 10 hours on an Atom Windows tablet but that's a lot slower than a Core M. If these ARM PCs could be a big hit if they have equivalent UI performance to a Core M with 2x-3x the battery life.yeeeeman - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
They don't stand a chance really. From what we know from reviews of ASUS Nova Go, these devices have a clear delay in processing anything and running a Chrome browser with a lot of tabs slows it down to a halt.serendip - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
The pricing is too close to the cheapest Surface Pro. I'd gladly give up 20 hours of battery life for 8 hours with full x86 compatibility, given that UWP/Metro apps are so little in number and lacking in quality. I've got a bad feeling this is Surface RT all over again.Valantar - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
I wonder if this can do Steam in-home streaming. Oh, and how well (poorly, I suppose) Photoshop and Lightroom would perform through emulation.PeachNCream - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
Windows on ARM is an interesting option. I like the idea of being able to pick a CPU platform that suits my needs so pulling ARM into what was once only an x86 world can end up being good for consumers. The problem I see with it right now is the translation layer that harms performance and the lack of 64-bit support in a world that is otherwise pretty much all in on 64-bit, but there's really no other way around those problems right now while we're in a transitional state and those problems will probably persist as long as we have x86 and ARM side-by-side like this.haukionkannel - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
Win10s is superb for customers like grandparents, schools, corporate bosses and so on with people that Are not so good with computers. They Are more safe and easier to use than normal Windows machines. And if the battery time is longer, the better.If you Are making movies, or Gaming or other that needs a lot of power, then this is not for you. But really good product to spesific tasks.
For example a salesman can use this to show powerpoint not stop a whole work day without any external power.
serendip - Tuesday, January 9, 2018 - link
That I agree with. This machine would be great if you mainly use Office and do web browsing. I guess smaller x86 apps could be usable if the code translation wasn't too slow. At $799 it's too expensive, it should be $599 to compete against iPad Pros.If you need niche x86 apps like scientific and engineering packages, a Surface Pro or even a cheap Atom tablet would be a better choice.
Jeff Bellin - Wednesday, January 10, 2018 - link
I think a Chromebook might be a better device for this use case - though most don't have the endurance this does, they run so smooth and fast for the grandparent/web set.