USB4 Gen 4: 40Gbit Thunderbolt USB4 Gen 3: AKA USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 USB4 Gen 2: AKA USB 3.2 Gen 2 AKA USB 3.1 Gen 2 USB4 Gen 1: AKA USB 3.2 Gen 1 AKA USB 3.1 Gen 1 AKA USB 3.0
"The detailed USB4 specification will be published in the middle of 2019 and half-assed, cheap hardware that only implements a subset of the total features list in order to cut corners on cost but still use the new name should appear in 2030 behind flimsy out-of-spec connectors and loose, easily damaged cables."
I had to add a few things to manage expectations and more accurately reflect reality, but I think we've got it now.
I guess I should add that "Super Speed+" is in need of a revision since it's been around for a while. I humbly suggest "Super Duper Speed+" with a clear path to USB5 (after a confusing run through 4.0.1, 4.1, and why not 4.1.2.2 as well) being referred to as "Super Dee Duper Speed+" because the world asked for simplification and that'll show those whiners.
Why not "Omega Speed 9000++" and then "QX 912 USB ver 4.1.1.00.12 build rev 4 Beta, now with new Mucho Grande Speed technology for speeds of up to but not limited to but not guaranteed @ 400,000,000 Kbpμs.
Like it or not, USB 4 is basically a Thunderbolt 3
“Releasing the Thunderbolt protocol specification is a significant milestone for making today’s simplest and most versatile port available to everyone,” said Jason Ziller, General Manager, Client Connectivity Division at Intel. “By collaborating with the USB Promoter Group, we’re opening the doors for innovation across a wide range of devices and increasing compatibility to deliver better experiences to consumers.”
The above image of "Thunderbolt 3 | The USB-C that does it all" is a tad confusing when read with "The new interface will use USB Type-C connectors and will maintain backwards compatibility with USB 2.0, USB 3.2, and Thunderbolt 3 interfaces."
Is USB4 a superset of Thunderbolt 3 (the text) or is Thunderbolt 3 a superset of USB4 (the image)? The image claims USB4 is a subset of TB3...while the text seems to write TB3 is a subset of USB4.
If information is correct USB4 is TB3 - This is big win for both Thunderbolt 3 and customers - article sounds like it is TB3 with possibility USB 3.2 2x2 added on - but big question is why would any body make USB 3.2 2x2 devices with TB3 out there and fully supported in USB 4
That blog link mentions that Intel PR affirmed TB was not exclusive to Apple, also it's from 2011 and about the first gen Thunderbolt product. And third parties have been making TB for years.
As originally envisioned Apple came to Intel with the idea if a single versatile and high bandwidth port (Lightpeak) which eventually became Thunderbolt and Intel has been willing to license it from what I understand.
The article your article links to has this sentence which is fun to read now that we're in a future if MacBook Airs and Pros with just USB-C TB3 ports:
"Translation: Apple products in the near future could come equipped with only a Light Peak port (or ports) to handle your networking, display driving, and general connectivity." Source: https://www.engadget.com/2009/09/26/exclusive-appl...
I find it also interesting that Apple has gone to USB-C and with TB3 open, Apple could use TB3 on iOS products - Also LightPeak is for TB3 which Intel created initially for Apple.
"Why would any body make USB 3.2 2x2 devices with TB3 out there amd fully supported in USB 4" Because there are cpus/motherboards that only support the former. You don't want to make a usb flash drive that only 30% of your customerbase can use, do you?
"The new standard is based on Intel’s Thunderbolt protocol and supports a range of features, including data transfer rates of up to 40 Gbps, display interfaces, and power delivery. The detailed USB4 specification will be published in the middle of 2019."
This sounds like USB4 is same as Thunderbolt 3 maybe with exception of possibly supporting USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 which may already work since TB3 surely can support 20Gbs
TB3 controllers already support DP1.4. Issue comes down to the ancient DP controller in Intel GPUs. Most TB3 setups (all?) do not hook a Nvidia or AMD GPU to the DP muxer in the TB3 controller.
Hey, at the time, Token Ring had a great advantage over Ethernet - it was consistently slow. One station or 200, same speed, whereas in those pre-switch days, Ethernet was REALLY fast with only a couple of stations but keep adding more to the same collision domain and it got slower. And how can you hate on anything that had devices known as CAUs and LAMs? Who didn't want their data center to be a barnyard? I don;t even want to talk about the effort we had to go through to make a super neat and tidy patch panel with those giant connectors and heavy cable - and it had to be neat because they put the thing behind a glass wall with spotlights shining on it so management could show clients just how high tech we were! The actual high tech devices in the room, the servers themselves, were not visible through the glass wall. ANd also - inspiration for the single best Dilbert strip ever - where they get the PHB to crawl around on the floor of his office looking for the token that fell out when he unplugged his network cable.
>There's nothing inherently wrong with TB3 other that it being proprietary and expensive. Well, except for it being PCIe and thus on the system bus. Access control for PCIe devices is tricky at best, and I quite fear that walking around with PCIe exploit dongles will be the Word-macro exploit of the 2020s. The nice thing with "traditional" USB is that it's a protocol that goes via the CPU and that can therefore be properly controlled in software.
Thunderbolt is nice and all, but I wonder if they really know what they're doing when they're putting easily accessible system-bus-expander ports on increasingly mobile systems.
So if USB 4 is based on Thunderbolt 3, does it require active USB-C cables for distances longer than 0.5m? One issue with Thunderbolt 3 is that active USB-C cables were not compatible with USB 3.1 even though the cables looked the same. This could at least be explained to customers by calling them Thunderbolt 3 cables. If active cables are still required for USB 4, it'll be harder for customers to understand why some USB 4 cables (long active) aren't backwards compatible with USB 3.2 and older while some USB 4 cables (short passive) are.
On a related note PCIe 4.0 should allow the next version of Thunderbolt (4?) to reach 80 Gbps with the same number of lanes and perhaps without even modifying the USB-C connector (however due to the huge bandwidth increase passive cables will presumably be limited to 50 cm tops). That might be one of the reasons Intel decided to open up Thunderbolt 3 now.
While they're at it, they should make an effort to include the required circuitry for HDMI alt mode in the USB 4 specification; that might coax TV manufacturers into including a USB C port on their TVs, since they seem to be unwilling to include DP alongside HDMI.
I do wonder how much the USB 4 cables are going to cost... Thunderbolt 3 cables are not cheap.
The standard includes everything from the controller to the cable. Just because identifying compliant cables can be a pain in the ass doesn't mean there isn't a standard for the cable itself.
Also, what do the cables have to do with power delivery? I haven't come across any USB-C cable that somehow restricted power delivery.
The need to boost voltage up to 56v so the cables can really cranks some power down them. A 5a rated cable could do over 250w. That'd be a true single cable external vid card or other countless options.
Hdmi has a usb-c alternative mode. It's currently capped at v.1.4b (10.2Gbit/s /8.16Gbit/s). It uses all the pins available in usb-c, reconfiguring some of them. It is unclear if hdmi will add support for higher speed usb-c.
Usb-c includes a displayport alternative mode. Tb has native Display Port support. Although tb3 initially only supported dp1.2, new tb3 controllers support the latest dp1.4 standard. Usb 4 will inherit dp1.4 support.
You specifically asked about speed. Thunderbolt 3 (and usb4) supports 40Gbit/s data. That is enough for hdmi 2.0b, but not for hdmi 2.1. Hdmi 2.1 needs 48Gbit/s. The next displayport standard is implied to feature speeds up to 65Gbit/s.
Could usb4 replace dp and hdmi? Yes and no. Usb4 will have support for the latest displayport, but not hdmi. Hdmi 2.0b support could theoretically be added. A future tb4 (or usb4.1) using pcie 4.0 could theoretically double it's speed to 80Gbit/s, enough to replace both the current hdmi and the next dp. At those speeds I could envision a 1 cable to rule them all.
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Dug - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
Well at least they didn't call it usb 3.2.1 Gen 3x4 super speed +++, or something like that.DanNeely - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
They're saving that for next years upgrade to PCIe4. USB4 Gen 4x4 LOLWHUTZOMGWTFBBQ SPEED.boeush - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
You left ATV out. 4x4 without ATV is just weak sauce.Opencg - Tuesday, March 5, 2019 - link
No you are confusing 4x4 with 2x8. God this stuff is so clearDanNeely - Tuesday, March 5, 2019 - link
ATV will be added when it upgrades to support PCIe4.0MrSpadge - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
I heard it was a pretty close call, but the group supporting "3.2.1 Gen 3x4 ..." was too fragmented and couldn't settle on any common naming.Lord of the Bored - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
Super USB 3.2 TurboSantoval - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
It's still quite early, so do not keep your hopes up. USB-IF might still screw up the branding of USB 4 as well.ajp_anton - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
USB4 Gen 4: 40Gbit ThunderboltUSB4 Gen 3: AKA USB 3.2 Gen 2x2
USB4 Gen 2: AKA USB 3.2 Gen 2 AKA USB 3.1 Gen 2
USB4 Gen 1: AKA USB 3.2 Gen 1 AKA USB 3.1 Gen 1 AKA USB 3.0
Lord of the Bored - Tuesday, March 5, 2019 - link
USB4 Gen 0: AKA USB 2.USB4 Gen -1: AKA USB 1.
BigMamaInHouse - Tuesday, March 5, 2019 - link
Now Apple can go for AMD 32Core~64core Mac Pro with TB3 support :-)PeachNCream - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
"The detailed USB4 specification will be published in the middle of 2019 and half-assed, cheap hardware that only implements a subset of the total features list in order to cut corners on cost but still use the new name should appear in 2030 behind flimsy out-of-spec connectors and loose, easily damaged cables."I had to add a few things to manage expectations and more accurately reflect reality, but I think we've got it now.
PeachNCream - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
I guess I should add that "Super Speed+" is in need of a revision since it's been around for a while. I humbly suggest "Super Duper Speed+" with a clear path to USB5 (after a confusing run through 4.0.1, 4.1, and why not 4.1.2.2 as well) being referred to as "Super Dee Duper Speed+" because the world asked for simplification and that'll show those whiners.LordSojar - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
Why not "Omega Speed 9000++" and then "QX 912 USB ver 4.1.1.00.12 build rev 4 Beta, now with new Mucho Grande Speed technology for speeds of up to but not limited to but not guaranteed @ 400,000,000 Kbpμs.I feel this is very clear.
PeachNCream - Tuesday, March 5, 2019 - link
If I could upvote your comment, I would have.LordSojar - Tuesday, March 5, 2019 - link
Oh, same my friend! It's funny because it's only mildly sarcastic compared to reality at this stage. The best humor is grounded in reality.magreen - Friday, March 8, 2019 - link
I'm actually laughing out loud.HStewart - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
Like it or not, USB 4 is basically a Thunderbolt 3“Releasing the Thunderbolt protocol specification is a significant milestone for making today’s simplest and most versatile port available to everyone,” said Jason Ziller, General Manager, Client Connectivity Division at Intel. “By collaborating with the USB Promoter Group, we’re opening the doors for innovation across a wide range of devices and increasing compatibility to deliver better experiences to consumers.”
ikjadoon - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
The above image of "Thunderbolt 3 | The USB-C that does it all" is a tad confusing when read with "The new interface will use USB Type-C connectors and will maintain backwards compatibility with USB 2.0, USB 3.2, and Thunderbolt 3 interfaces."Is USB4 a superset of Thunderbolt 3 (the text) or is Thunderbolt 3 a superset of USB4 (the image)? The image claims USB4 is a subset of TB3...while the text seems to write TB3 is a subset of USB4.
Or we just don't know yet?
stanleyipkiss - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
It's just an old ad for TB3. It's got nothing to do with this new standard. There are currently no USB4 materials available.HStewart - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
If information is correct USB4 is TB3 - This is big win for both Thunderbolt 3 and customers - article sounds like it is TB3 with possibility USB 3.2 2x2 added on - but big question is why would any body make USB 3.2 2x2 devices with TB3 out there and fully supported in USB 4jtd871 - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
Ya, sure sounds like Intel is wanting to muddy the waters and Osborne USB3.2 2x2.HStewart - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
This is probably because Intel did announce they would open there specs for TB3 - which they could not until certain period of Apple exclusivity.http://statuesquejail5.blogspot.com/2011/02/intel-...
usama_ah - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
That blog link mentions that Intel PR affirmed TB was not exclusive to Apple, also it's from 2011 and about the first gen Thunderbolt product. And third parties have been making TB for years.As originally envisioned Apple came to Intel with the idea if a single versatile and high bandwidth port (Lightpeak) which eventually became Thunderbolt and Intel has been willing to license it from what I understand.
The article your article links to has this sentence which is fun to read now that we're in a future if MacBook Airs and Pros with just USB-C TB3 ports:
"Translation: Apple products in the near future could come equipped with only a Light Peak port (or ports) to handle your networking, display driving, and general connectivity."
Source: https://www.engadget.com/2009/09/26/exclusive-appl...
HStewart - Tuesday, March 5, 2019 - link
Apple had exclusive rights for first year of TB3.I find it also interesting that Apple has gone to USB-C and with TB3 open, Apple could use TB3 on iOS products - Also LightPeak is for TB3 which Intel created initially for Apple.
Rudde - Wednesday, March 6, 2019 - link
"Why would any body make USB 3.2 2x2 devices with TB3 out there amd fully supported in USB 4"Because there are cpus/motherboards that only support the former. You don't want to make a usb flash drive that only 30% of your customerbase can use, do you?
ikjadoon - Thursday, March 7, 2019 - link
It is a current ad. It literally writes USB4 in the ad.But, I see my error: that is not a "superset" / "subset" indication. It's just the design of the SmartArt they picked in PowerPoint...
tuxRoller - Tuesday, March 5, 2019 - link
I would imagine it's a superset because of alt-mode.skavi - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
is anyone aware of the difference between USB 4 and USB 3.2 + Thunderbolt 3?HStewart - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
Big question if USB 3.2 2x2 device support on Thunderbolt 3? 20Gbs sure is.HStewart - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
"The new standard is based on Intel’s Thunderbolt protocol and supports a range of features, including data transfer rates of up to 40 Gbps, display interfaces, and power delivery. The detailed USB4 specification will be published in the middle of 2019."This sounds like USB4 is same as Thunderbolt 3 maybe with exception of possibly supporting USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 which may already work since TB3 surely can support 20Gbs
p1esk - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
Can it make DP1.4 and HDMI 2.1 obsolete?HStewart - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
Thunderbolt 3 does support DP1.4 not sure anything support HDMI 2.1jeremyshaw - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
TB3 controllers already support DP1.4. Issue comes down to the ancient DP controller in Intel GPUs. Most TB3 setups (all?) do not hook a Nvidia or AMD GPU to the DP muxer in the TB3 controller.Midwayman - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
Its not fast enough for hdmi 2.1 That's 48Gbps.Vitor - Wednesday, March 6, 2019 - link
No. HDMI 2.1 is 20% faster (48gbps)id4andrei - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
Sounds like UBS is being hijacked by TB. TB should be an option and not the cornerstone of USB.Great_Scott - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
Eh. If you can't beat them, join them. There's nothing inherently wrong with TB3 other that it being proprietary and expensive.Now it's just expensive, but hopefully the cost will come down in line with the increased usage.
Intel learned the lesson that IBM taught everyone - you can make something a profit center, or you can make something popular. But not both.
Rest in Peace, MCA adapters and Token Ring networking.
rrinker - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
Hey, at the time, Token Ring had a great advantage over Ethernet - it was consistently slow. One station or 200, same speed, whereas in those pre-switch days, Ethernet was REALLY fast with only a couple of stations but keep adding more to the same collision domain and it got slower. And how can you hate on anything that had devices known as CAUs and LAMs? Who didn't want their data center to be a barnyard? I don;t even want to talk about the effort we had to go through to make a super neat and tidy patch panel with those giant connectors and heavy cable - and it had to be neat because they put the thing behind a glass wall with spotlights shining on it so management could show clients just how high tech we were! The actual high tech devices in the room, the servers themselves, were not visible through the glass wall.ANd also - inspiration for the single best Dilbert strip ever - where they get the PHB to crawl around on the floor of his office looking for the token that fell out when he unplugged his network cable.
Dolda2000 - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
>There's nothing inherently wrong with TB3 other that it being proprietary and expensive.Well, except for it being PCIe and thus on the system bus. Access control for PCIe devices is tricky at best, and I quite fear that walking around with PCIe exploit dongles will be the Word-macro exploit of the 2020s. The nice thing with "traditional" USB is that it's a protocol that goes via the CPU and that can therefore be properly controlled in software.
Thunderbolt is nice and all, but I wonder if they really know what they're doing when they're putting easily accessible system-bus-expander ports on increasingly mobile systems.
Reflex - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
They don't: https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/27/18243503/thunde...ltcommanderdata - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
So if USB 4 is based on Thunderbolt 3, does it require active USB-C cables for distances longer than 0.5m? One issue with Thunderbolt 3 is that active USB-C cables were not compatible with USB 3.1 even though the cables looked the same. This could at least be explained to customers by calling them Thunderbolt 3 cables. If active cables are still required for USB 4, it'll be harder for customers to understand why some USB 4 cables (long active) aren't backwards compatible with USB 3.2 and older while some USB 4 cables (short passive) are.Santoval - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
On a related note PCIe 4.0 should allow the next version of Thunderbolt (4?) to reach 80 Gbps with the same number of lanes and perhaps without even modifying the USB-C connector (however due to the huge bandwidth increase passive cables will presumably be limited to 50 cm tops). That might be one of the reasons Intel decided to open up Thunderbolt 3 now.HStewart - Tuesday, March 5, 2019 - link
My guess is that Intel will Join up with USB and come out with Joint TB4 / USB 5 release.forextor - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
For the Alternative Branding, since High Speed and Super Speed is taken...., I suggest "Super Saiya Speed" for USB4.0siris - Monday, March 4, 2019 - link
While they're at it, they should make an effort to include the required circuitry for HDMI alt mode in the USB 4 specification; that might coax TV manufacturers into including a USB C port on their TVs, since they seem to be unwilling to include DP alongside HDMI.I do wonder how much the USB 4 cables are going to cost... Thunderbolt 3 cables are not cheap.
imaheadcase - Tuesday, March 5, 2019 - link
oh great, a "standard" that really is only standard by the connector. Power delivery almost is never in all the cables i've tested ever right.jordanclock - Tuesday, March 5, 2019 - link
The standard includes everything from the controller to the cable. Just because identifying compliant cables can be a pain in the ass doesn't mean there isn't a standard for the cable itself.Also, what do the cables have to do with power delivery? I haven't come across any USB-C cable that somehow restricted power delivery.
Dug - Tuesday, March 5, 2019 - link
It's an issue with many cables. Some work some don't. Even from the same batch.NoSoMo - Tuesday, March 5, 2019 - link
The need to boost voltage up to 56v so the cables can really cranks some power down them. A 5a rated cable could do over 250w. That'd be a true single cable external vid card or other countless options.samal90 - Tuesday, March 5, 2019 - link
can someone answer this to me please?At these speeds, could USB4 replace display port and HDMI? We could finally have 1 cable to rule them all.
Rudde - Wednesday, March 6, 2019 - link
Hdmi has a usb-c alternative mode. It's currently capped at v.1.4b (10.2Gbit/s /8.16Gbit/s). It uses all the pins available in usb-c, reconfiguring some of them. It is unclear if hdmi will add support for higher speed usb-c.Usb-c includes a displayport alternative mode. Tb has native Display Port support. Although tb3 initially only supported dp1.2, new tb3 controllers support the latest dp1.4 standard. Usb 4 will inherit dp1.4 support.
You specifically asked about speed. Thunderbolt 3 (and usb4) supports 40Gbit/s data. That is enough for hdmi 2.0b, but not for hdmi 2.1. Hdmi 2.1 needs 48Gbit/s. The next displayport standard is implied to feature speeds up to 65Gbit/s.
Could usb4 replace dp and hdmi? Yes and no. Usb4 will have support for the latest displayport, but not hdmi. Hdmi 2.0b support could theoretically be added. A future tb4 (or usb4.1) using pcie 4.0 could theoretically double it's speed to 80Gbit/s, enough to replace both the current hdmi and the next dp. At those speeds I could envision a 1 cable to rule them all.
Rudde - Wednesday, March 6, 2019 - link
Edit: Newest ThunderBolt controllers support hdmi 2.0. I can assume usb 4 also will.ABR - Tuesday, March 5, 2019 - link
12M, 480M (x40) 5G (x10) 10G, 20G, 40G (collectively x8). "Peak USB" is coming..Deb.roy - Tuesday, March 5, 2019 - link
Nice opinion. You can Readout mine in details https://www.qitwire.com/2019/03/usb4-details-speci...Deb.roy - Tuesday, March 5, 2019 - link
Nice opinion. You can Readout mine in details https://www.qitwire.com/2019/03/usb4-details-speci...