After reading this Intel regained my full trust in the company and solutions.............NOT, uber high volume of marketing BS, after 20y Intel and Xeon I think she is ready to go for a politcal position.(how to talk around the questions and turn sand into wasted silicon)
Nope, if i want to read political statements I'll go read them elsewhere. Anandtech should be about Tech articles and not PR material on how things will improve.
The contents of this article might be good, but there is just too much text that it reads like a PR piece. Also, the use of exclamations marks adds to that feeling.
Anandtech please take note of this. I've also been kinda put off about the amount of intel fluff articles you've been doing lately. Perhaps ask them to group their opinion together into a single article each quarter so they don't push the real news off the top slot?
That comment comes across as needlessly harsh and I wish I could edit it. However, I still want to see info on new components rather than re-visiting stuff that has already been announced or comments about strategy.
The majority of Executives, Presidents and VPs behave like politicians. They have a script for whatever the company has to let people know outside of the usual sources.
The Hotchips presentations can be more interesting about chip details. However, you wouldn't get from them that 80% of the Proof of Concept trials for Optane are advancing to products.
I checked her LinkedIn profile. She came from Marketing. So speaking a lot without saying much is their second nature. I wonder know how a Marketing person got to be a VP of Tech department. I already know the answer but will leave it to be drawn by others.
the value is within the 0.1% of adaption rate :) which makes a clear total solution offering. On the other hand the driver for performance is irrelevant
the media SKU that is looking for specific Core count + base ghz + turbo ghz are already looking into ....... AMD portfolio as these SKU deliver on all of those relevant factors
The problem isn't the inherent value. Its when Intel decided to implement it when they are stuck on 14nm. You now hove something that causes more heat and takes up some die space that is fairly fringe outside of servers. If they would have waited until a full node shrink like say there 7nm they could have easily fit AVX-512 in without a major compromise.
"But this core group of women that I’m really excited about in leadership and technical badass roles out there. They are arm and arm with me and with our partners to crush it and bring so much performance and capability and commitment back to Xeon"
Well that explains why Intel is really in horrible situation, we need more virtue signalling in the Tech interviews and role !!
Way to mangle the words. Look at what she is saying, she is doing the useless PR garbage stunt. On top she is from marketing background, which explains what she is doing. Her own words
" I had an opportunity to move out of more traditional marketing role into having the control of product management and the IP planning and overall roadmap structuring to build this cross company team - the Xeon Leadership team."
That has to be a joke. This company is doomed marketing position to VP of Xeon teams ? haha literal trashfire. Forced political talk like hers do not make success, it has be done through actions. Which is what AMD did, and what makes you think that line of yours with zero logic. AMD CEO is a woman and that company is doing fantastic job, did the AMD interviews here ever mentioned diversity politics ? I don't remember.
They will stay alive since they have a lot of cash and the x86 dominance, the true engineering talent is just controlled by these muppets sadly which is why Rocket Lake is such a disaster. High power, loss of cores and performance vs the old gen, on top of that backport which is the only positive thing for Intel not for consumers.
I would reserve my comments until I get to know the person better. Looking at my resume, nobody would assume I had the chops for software development, graphics design, or management. But I learned them all as hobbies and as part of my job (which says nothing about those skills in my job title) and it’s their loss if they pass over someone with a broad range of interdisciplinary skills.
Perhaps it's not so much your words being mangled as you being unclear, as more than one of us drew the same conclusion.
As it is, you're making a bunch of unsupported statements that don't entirely relate to each other. Like sure, maybe having a "marketing person" in charge of Xeon is a bad idea - but what do we know about her skills? We know she's been with Intel for 20 years, presumably she knows the terrain well, why assume automatically that she's just another stuffed suit off the back of a talk where anybody in her position is basically expected to give stuffed-suit responses?
It doesn't follow from any of your suppositions that this is "why Rocket Lake was such a disaster". It's not really even a disaster, it's just a poor product because it wasn't built to be back-ported.
Intel has one of these "too big to fail" mentalities that reminds me of the Detroit auto industry. They dodge questions and concerns from the press and investors about their competition (direct like AMD, and indirect like ARM) and spew out some snobby response akin to 'we don't waste time focusing on what our competitors are doing' which is exactly why they are where they are now. Behind.
Just like Tesla shocked everyone - including myself - with their success because Detroit ignored the threat. So everyone has been playing catchup for the last decade.
I think what's annoying is Ms. Spelman's making it a man/woman point in that juncture. Instead of unity, one gets a feeling of division. How about a human being and not a male or female?
Women are still in a minority in these positions, especially in tech. You sound like when people say BLM is "divisive" - the divisions are there already, you're just asking that people not talk about them. FYI, that's not actually how things get better.
I agree with Geoffrey. Spelman's comment came across as virtue signaling to me.
There are injustice and divisions in society but the way to tackle them is in making fundamental systemic changes - this involves, yes, not furthering the division. Identity politics is a one-way street.
(and yes, BLM can be very divisive actually - and I say this as an ethnic minority who wasn't born in the US. BLM is well-intended but look no further than the black spokesperson from ACLU criticizing white moms who marched for BLM - that they are a "distraction" from the "real issue". may be just be happy people are supporting you instead of picking them apart for anything that doesn't sit well with you. this zealous pursuit for moral purity in modern "liberalism" is everything classical liberalism is NOT about.)
America is just a bunch of little tribes constantly at war with one another.
I felt that 'virtue signaling' as well, and that's a good way of putting it. Albeit a different role, you never see this kind of shit out of Lisa Su or even Mary Barra (GM) for that matter. Both of them are well aware they work in male dominant industries and that there is no need to point out the obvious. They are there to do a job and they do it exceptionally well without discussing gender roles.
I found the comments off putting. Imagine that comment in reverse “I got a team of rockstars here, notice a theme, all guys...oh, and I have a couple women too”. The best way to approach this problem is like Lisa Su. Show up with top performance, crush these “rockstars” with measurable benchmarks, and drop the mic. It results in universal respect and admiration, unlike her ridiculous marketing.
Lisa Su is in a league of her own. Her calibre, diplomacy, discretion, humour---10/10. Always a delight to listen to her talk. She even handles the marketing stuff in such a way that one can't help being charmed. "Ryzen 7000: Continuing Leadership and Destroying All Barriers to Performance. IPC +40%. Competition Cannot Keep Up."
May be because Ms. Su is an actual engineer/intellectual AND is a native Taiwanese (same nationality as me); I don't think she finds any reason to partake in the circus that is American identity politics.
I work for a major tech company and the amount of PC/identify politics BS is the one thing I often get very annoyed by.
Sarah, Intels performace over the past 5 years speaks for itself. Pretending to that putting any thing but the most capable people in charge, will just cripple this company. China will destroy the U.S. in 10 year if we continue this non-sense.
'But this core group of women that I’m really excited about in leadership and technical badass roles out there. They are arm and arm with me and with our partners to crush it and bring so much performance and capability and commitment back to Xeon.'
That's really awful. This kind of thing is sexism, which is ironic but expected.
"70% of those deal wins, the reason listed by our salesforce for that win was AVX-512" When you are behind on price, performance, and efficiency, then the only reason left to purchase your product is for "features". AVX-512 is very useful to certain people, so of course the vast majority of your customers would be those kinds of people.
It’s also gotta be some powerful stuff if it makes up for lower clock speeds (due to throttling), inferior process nodes, and performance regressions due to Spectre mitigations.
For certain applications, it makes up. At the same number of cores and power consumption, Ice Lake Server, when executing AVX-512 heavy instructions, has only about 2/3 of the clock frequency of an Epyc 7xx3, but it has a double number of floating-point multipliers, so it can multiply about 33% faster than Epyc.
So for an application that is limited by the FP multiply rate, Ice Lake Server wins.
Nevertheless, at the same price an Epyc may have a more than 3 times larger L3 cache, so even for many floating-point applications the advantages of a higher clock frequency and of a much larger cache are enough to make Epyc win.
For general-purpose applications, the higher clock frequency and much larger cache ensure that Epyc always wins.
those kinds of people would include anyone doing AI inference on the CPU, since Intel has targeted that with the 8 bit avx512 operations for several years.
Why has AMD not added something like Intel's dlboost? Did they think AI is just a fad, or is it their position that everyone needs to be doing this on their GPUs?
I think it's mostly a matter of what they can implement and when. They have a GP-GPU portfolio, Intel don't (yet), so it makes sense that Intel would try to push these functions to the CPU and AMD wouldn't push so hard in the same direction.
Ian, I usually enjoy your interviews and I understand that you can't be too much of a hard-ass or you don't get another interview but... Those weren't even softball questions; they were wiffle balls on a t-ball stand. It couldn't have been more saccharine if Intel had supplied the questions themselves. Also, no follow-ups to even attempt to break through the marketing corp-speak? You can do better.
All of their Intel interview questions are like this and not by choice. Intel would destroy Anandtech if they posted ANYTHING remotely controversial. The word Ryzen nor EPYC nor AMD is anywhere in this piece. They have to say "competitors" because it isn't allowed at all. Intel decideds, not Ian.
Nope. I decided on the questions. These are all my questions. Intel got none of the questions in advance.
Interviewing is a skill and a technique - you have to give a little to get a little, and understand that there's no point in asking questions that (a) annoy the interviewee so much they won't answer anything else, or (b) they simply won't answer at all because you've worked with them for 10+ years and you know what sorts of things they can and cannot say.
Also, anyone VP and up is going to be media trained for sure, and anyone worth their salt is going to have mentally gone through a number of best-tuned answers to expected questions. I don't expect anything less. It's my job as an interviewer to get them to think outside those expected questions and answer them from a different perspective such that the readership (consumers, customers, technical, non-technical) can get something out of it. As the interviewer you also have to go into the interview understanding why they think the way they do in order to design your questions around that frame of mind.
In this interview:
- I wanted to highlight Intel's changing message about system value rather than core value - I got in the question about the future of Optane - I got in the question about Ice Lake capacity and rollout - I got in the question about Ice being so close to Sapphire - I got in the question about segmenting out the quad-socket platform - I got in the question about the relevance of AVX-512 - I got in the question about having so many segmented SKUs and why - heck I even got a mention of immersion cooling! - I also mentioned several times that Ice Lake was late - I got in the question about the future of Xeon with Intel's tiling strategy
In the 30 or so minutes, from the sort of things I knew I wanted to talk about vs what I knew Lisa would talk about, this is really good set of answers from my POV. You're not going to get explicit next-gen details disclosed in an interview like this, it's neither the time nor the place. Nor are you going to get CPU architect-style answers either. I'd have to speak to Rebecca or Nevine or Sailesh or Ronak to do that sort of thing, and build a rapport with them. I've interviewed Lisa two or three times now, and each time I've learned a lot about how XMG are doing what they do and the reasons why. I might not agree with the direction, but helping people to understand what I understand is one of the reasons I do these interviews.
The interview was great and the way you asked was also good Ian, no joking or pitching anything there. But you got to agree that not all answers were so straightforward or even real on topic. They continue to talk around the story since they know from a base x86 perspective they are in trouble. Ice Lake 2s is not a good replacement for cooper lake R unless you talk about cpie4 and more mem controllers which the latter are again restrained sizing based on the SKU, 4s - 8s is a complete joke. All other topics are just part of the solution that are very specific cases. Not evne close to mass volume. Which btw you failed to mention that if they only delivered 100-200k CPU they are far from any realistic volume....
They've shipped 30 million TGL chips, a family of 10nm p5900 chips, gpus, ice lake server chips and are sampling 10nm fpgas and next gen 10esf gpus, mobile, desktop and server chips.
They solved hard problems that many have given up on.
point is ? rocket lake is a dud, most reviews show, and say this. intel is behind, it tried to do too much with 10nm, and it failed, then they kept lieing about it, kept saying its on track, more marketing BS. the only reason intel is even selling any cpus right now, is cause ryzen 3 is out of stock. only the fan boys and diehard fans, are staying with intel, quite a few people i know, could care less about intel and rocket lake, they are all waiting to buy ryzen 5000.
most of this interview seems to be question dodging and PR fluff. intel trying to save face.
" they solved hard problems that many have given up on." yea and it took how long to barely fix 10nm ? how much money did they throw at it, and it STILL isnt where it needs to be, IF it was, rocket lake ( what ever name it would of been if it was on 10nm ) wouldn't of been back ported to 14nm. come on Jaynor, its obvious you love and worship intel, but its time to admit, intel has falling hard cause of its stumbles.
Proving the point that for some people, literally *any* mention of Intel's difficulties is too much.
Ice Lake is not in "the rear view mirror", it's very much their present. I work for an organisation that just replaced our infrastructure, and we effectively got the same performing hardware we'd have got 4 years ago, although thankfully at a lower cost.
I don't know who the "many have given up on" is here, as their main competitors certainly have not given up. GloFo, I guess? Not exactly a benchmark for silicon manufacturing prowess.
I appreciate the effort. It's a difficult line to walk, and while I understand the disappointment a lot of people here have with the answers, I'm really not sure what you could have done to get different - let alone "better" - answers.
I think people have this idea that you're supposed to go at it like a political journalist or something, not that most political journalists do that much anymore anyway... but I don't think they'd have enjoyed seeing the results of that any more than this.
Your questions were fine, the problem is I could not finish this article as there was too much marketing BS in it rather than answering the actual question.
The problem is the person you were interviewing, we don't care about her virtue signalling/Intel male/female, we care about the product and how Intel is going to handle competition and the move they will make to bring themselves out of their current issue (which includes to explain where they went wrong).
yeah I couldn't finish reading this. I was expecting a more technical interview I guess, since most of AnandTech's articles are quite technical (and good because of it)
You are right on the money. And they have a handler who will follow up. I know this because I have done interviews with major media outlets (WSJ and several magazines in my space). They will not let you speak without that.
Yeah I liked that slip about immersion cooling, and the Ice Lake being viable for quite a bit after Sapphire Rapids launches (maybe delayed, or bad yields?)
Optane was interesting too. Are they going to have a new manufacturer, or build a new fab for it or something?
There's some interesting information in it, just not said straight out.
I have a feeling Anandtech has been a bad boy with their early Rocket lake review, so now they need to be put back on the leash. Countless Intel articles (or should I call them advertorials) the last few weeks about essentially inferior products.
Lisa was the top girl name in the US from 1962 to 1969. Given the amount of time in a career to make it to the top of a company, that's about right, mid 50's for age.
A huge amount of this is marketing boilerplate bullhockey that you could put any name, any title, and any company in front of and still write the same thing. Half of this isnt even answering the question asked.
"What we’re doing here is we’re updating the platform, we’re updating the processor, and we’re updating a bunch of our portfolio all at once, which we think delivers a tremendous amount of customer value."
What the @#$! does that even mean? Its literally: "We are doing all the things that our jobs are to actually do at this company. All at once. Which customers should appreciate when we do it."
I gave up half way through, there was almost nothing in the first half that gave any real perspective on what Intel is intending to do doing differently than the recent past or better than anyone else.
Naysayers and fanbois aside, this interview is the most informative thing I've seen as far as detailing what customers (and especially hyperscalers) are actually looking for. Raw all-core performance matters, still, but this helps explain how Intel's still done so well even as they obviously lagged in some benchmarks or applications. Thanks Ian (and Lisa!).
Choice bits of Intel PR gobbledygook...;) I especially enjoyed her stating that "it's not so much when you execute that counts as much as when you do execute" spiel. Oh, man...nobody is buying that goulash. Intel would be much better served by talking about how far behind AMD they've fallen and what their general plans are to at least try and catch up--aside from burning through billions in cash. Yet Gelsinger, showing his age and dating the period of his experience in the company, hardly talks about AMD. Instead, he talks about Apple and nVidia's future ARM cpus! This is a blind spot that is absolutely huge. Apple dropped Intel because of Intel's continuing failure to innovate and move forward, and nVidia isn't in the running.
Back in Gelsinger's day the Intel policy was not to even talk about AMD or even mention AMD as a competitor. It didn't work in Intel's favor then and it certainly won't now. I mean, does Gelsinger believe that if Intel doesn't mention how aggressively AMD is moving ever farther ahead of Intel--that the world will simply forget AMD? Gelsinger really better wake up and smell the coffee--it's much more likely that Intel will be forgotten instead, at this rate. Intel is a very strange company, imo.
I think Ian should use his Mr. Potato Head logo for these Intel articles. I'd also like to know if one of the conditions for the interview was that Ian not use the "AMD" in a direct fashion...;)
Half of those are from Altera acquisition and AMD is acquiring Xilinx which is ahead in many aspects, including FPGAs, 5G and some chips for autonomous vehicle technologies. AV512 and dlboost are fringe tech not useful for the vast majority (95%+). Optane is going away since it never was financially viable or got adopted, and Micron is selling the fab for it. Foveros and 3D tiles are showcased for Intel to brag about since they are not financially viable to be in mass volume products, not for consumers and not yet for servers/enterprise, like AMD chiplets are. TSMC has equivalent or better 3D and active silicon bridge packaging technologies. PCIE5 and CXL? They were years late even to PCIE4, so it remains to be seen since there are no products on the market. Silicon photonics and quantum computers, I have to give you those. They are ahead in research.
The thing with Intel is that the show these things years before ready of financially viable so that people know "how wonderful is made" but when it comes time to actually execute and sell the products they are behind schedule, behind in performance and cost.
" Intel has its own wafer process ... didn't throw in the towel when they encountered difficult problems. " and look where that got them. STILL using 14nm. and yet more claims about what and where they will be in 2-3 years, which i will only believe when it happens, and they deliver on their promises, which i doubt at this time, they will be able to.
AMD are only one of Intel's competitors, though, and the most direct - so it does make a lot of sense not to mention them. Why give them the PR? It's a no-win either way for Intel (mentioning them directly looks weak) so they might as well take the option that looks stupid but doesn't advertise their closest competitor.
As for Nvidia and ARM, they probably are a more interesting target for Intel, because what AMD take away Intel can just as easily take back (same architecture!) whereas losses to ARM are losses they cannot easily recoup in a short timeframe.
Lisa seems to have confirmed a lot of the educated guesses about the reasons why Intel hasn't lost more market share in the server market despite the fact that AMD/Arm options are clearly in the lead as far as the CPUs are concerned. It's all of the extra things they offer which the others currently do not, and I'd imagine the Xeon adoption by US cell carriers for 5G has opened a new revenue angle.
I'm really mostly curious about the future of Xeon with the tiled manufacturing concepts they've been putting forward.
Thanks to all who put this interview together while it wasn't super in depth tech wise it still answered strategy questions which is what I expected given Lisa's position in the company.
The comments section on this interview makes me wonder if this is a bad side effect of getting an in depth look at RKL first.
Did they just top up the older Xiaomi story to bump this one down? Yes they did. Internet Archive, archive.today, and Google cache don't have it, but Bing's cache does:
"Did they just top up the older Xiaomi story to bump this one down? Yes they did"
Yep, I did. We had another piece scheduled to run today, but that was pushed back due to some delays. So I put the Xiaomi story back on top, as I'd rather heave the lead piece be a hardware review than an interview.
It's nothing that I try to be secretive about. We can shuffle the top stories arbitrarily, and often do so to keep things like reviews and major announcements at the top (ahead of things like live blogs and interviews), even if they're not the most chronologically recent.
Absolutely and exclusively an advertising campaign from INTEL, and again via smoke candle: INTEL has always sent this lady ahead when they wanted to distract from the incompetence or rip-off of their customers. Whether it's because of her smile or whatever (...), I can't say. But if she had the slightest bit of self-respect, she wouldn't go along with it.... But anyway: she can - obvously it brings her a lot of money - BUT ANANDTECH MAY NOT SUPPORT BY PUBLISHING SUCH CAMPAIGNS or SMOKE CANDLE ACTIONS FROM ANYONE!!!
'But if she had the slightest bit of self-respect, she wouldn't go along with it..'
Um... corporations aren't about that. They're about 'making' money. Advertising/marketing's entire purpose is to fool people into paying more for things than what they're worth.
It's always amusing to see people post from the fantasy point of view that corporations and their employees are doing some sort of altruistic exercise. All of the social benefits of corporations are the scraps we get in return for them taking more than us.
They're basically a wealth redistribution scheme, a form of tricky regressive taxation. 'We' see it as a positive system because 'we' benefit from it (our 'benefactors' benefit mainly).
Ian's point about knowing which questions to ask and not to ask is certainly true. The issue here is the interviewee. Why waste time on a marketing talking head. There was predictably absolutely no value to any of the answers. Don't degrade the quality of this site by interviewing worthless candidates.
She seems proud to have a nearly all-female staff leading the team. Isn't that so diverse and woke. Was the best candidate chosen for each position chosen based on merit and accomplishment or based on sex? The answer is obvious. Not than having a 90% female team is diverse or anything.
Not really. Given how huge the human population is, it doesn't seem all that difficult to find enough people to fulfill a particular quota who are well-qualified.
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duploxxx - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
After reading this Intel regained my full trust in the company and solutions.............NOT, uber high volume of marketing BS, after 20y Intel and Xeon I think she is ready to go for a politcal position.(how to talk around the questions and turn sand into wasted silicon)Hulk - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
I agree. Lots of words and very little actual content.YB1064 - Sunday, April 18, 2021 - link
Completely worthless interview for the AT audience. Does anybody here care about the upper management bowel movements?Sharken03 - Monday, April 19, 2021 - link
Nope, if i want to read political statements I'll go read them elsewhere. Anandtech should be about Tech articles and not PR material on how things will improve.The contents of this article might be good, but there is just too much text that it reads like a PR piece. Also, the use of exclamations marks adds to that feeling.
hob196 - Thursday, April 22, 2021 - link
Anandtech please take note of this.I've also been kinda put off about the amount of intel fluff articles you've been doing lately. Perhaps ask them to group their opinion together into a single article each quarter so they don't push the real news off the top slot?
hob196 - Thursday, April 22, 2021 - link
That comment comes across as needlessly harsh and I wish I could edit it.However, I still want to see info on new components rather than re-visiting stuff that has already been announced or comments about strategy.
Udyr - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
The majority of Executives, Presidents and VPs behave like politicians. They have a script for whatever the company has to let people know outside of the usual sources.eva02langley - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
You can actually get something when asking a technical question from Norrod or Papermaster.JayNor - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
The Hotchips presentations can be more interesting about chip details. However, you wouldn't get from them that 80% of the Proof of Concept trials for Optane are advancing to products.Oxford Guy - Monday, April 26, 2021 - link
They are politicians. The difference between corporation and government is marginal.eva02langley - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
I was having the feeling it would be this way. I will read it for sure and capture the big inepties at some point.Vijaya.Dahiya - Saturday, April 24, 2021 - link
I checked her LinkedIn profile. She came from Marketing. So speaking a lot without saying much is their second nature. I wonder know how a Marketing person got to be a VP of Tech department. I already know the answer but will leave it to be drawn by others.Oxford Guy - Monday, April 26, 2021 - link
Well, Lisa Su is a scientist and I distinctly remember her fascinating interview. Here it is:IC: Hello.
Su: Hi.
IC: (various questions)
Su: AMD is great.
Su: Bye.
IC: Bye.
nandnandnand - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
"sometimes I marvel when I read your audience’s comments about the raucous debate they will have about the value of AVX-512"It will have some value to _consumers_ (majority of AnandTech readers) a few years after AMD adds support for it.
duploxxx - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
the value is within the 0.1% of adaption rate :) which makes a clear total solution offering.On the other hand the driver for performance is irrelevant
the media SKU that is looking for specific Core count + base ghz + turbo ghz are already looking into ....... AMD portfolio as these SKU deliver on all of those relevant factors
FreckledTrout - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
The problem isn't the inherent value. Its when Intel decided to implement it when they are stuck on 14nm. You now hove something that causes more heat and takes up some die space that is fairly fringe outside of servers. If they would have waited until a full node shrink like say there 7nm they could have easily fit AVX-512 in without a major compromise.Silver5urfer - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
"But this core group of women that I’m really excited about in leadership and technical badass roles out there. They are arm and arm with me and with our partners to crush it and bring so much performance and capability and commitment back to Xeon"Well that explains why Intel is really in horrible situation, we need more virtue signalling in the Tech interviews and role !!
SarahKerrigan - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
You're saying Intel is in a horrible situation because they have some women in technical roles?Silver5urfer - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
Way to mangle the words. Look at what she is saying, she is doing the useless PR garbage stunt. On top she is from marketing background, which explains what she is doing. Her own words" I had an opportunity to move out of more traditional marketing role into having the control of product management and the IP planning and overall roadmap structuring to build this cross company team - the Xeon Leadership team."
That has to be a joke. This company is doomed marketing position to VP of Xeon teams ? haha literal trashfire. Forced political talk like hers do not make success, it has be done through actions. Which is what AMD did, and what makes you think that line of yours with zero logic. AMD CEO is a woman and that company is doing fantastic job, did the AMD interviews here ever mentioned diversity politics ? I don't remember.
They will stay alive since they have a lot of cash and the x86 dominance, the true engineering talent is just controlled by these muppets sadly which is why Rocket Lake is such a disaster. High power, loss of cores and performance vs the old gen, on top of that backport which is the only positive thing for Intel not for consumers.
Silver5urfer - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
I would request Ian to get strong Technical leaders for Interviews instead of this marketing useless softspeak.DannyH246 - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
meh www.IntelTech.com has been publishing this crap for years now. Every other week there's another Intel marketing article.LiKenun - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
I would reserve my comments until I get to know the person better. Looking at my resume, nobody would assume I had the chops for software development, graphics design, or management. But I learned them all as hobbies and as part of my job (which says nothing about those skills in my job title) and it’s their loss if they pass over someone with a broad range of interdisciplinary skills.Spunjji - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
@LiKenun - tough luck, Silver5urfer has spoken and you're only as good as the bits of your CV he's scan-read 🤣Spunjji - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
Perhaps it's not so much your words being mangled as you being unclear, as more than one of us drew the same conclusion.As it is, you're making a bunch of unsupported statements that don't entirely relate to each other. Like sure, maybe having a "marketing person" in charge of Xeon is a bad idea - but what do we know about her skills? We know she's been with Intel for 20 years, presumably she knows the terrain well, why assume automatically that she's just another stuffed suit off the back of a talk where anybody in her position is basically expected to give stuffed-suit responses?
It doesn't follow from any of your suppositions that this is "why Rocket Lake was such a disaster". It's not really even a disaster, it's just a poor product because it wasn't built to be back-ported.
Samus - Saturday, April 17, 2021 - link
Intel has one of these "too big to fail" mentalities that reminds me of the Detroit auto industry. They dodge questions and concerns from the press and investors about their competition (direct like AMD, and indirect like ARM) and spew out some snobby response akin to 'we don't waste time focusing on what our competitors are doing' which is exactly why they are where they are now. Behind.Just like Tesla shocked everyone - including myself - with their success because Detroit ignored the threat. So everyone has been playing catchup for the last decade.
GeoffreyA - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
I think what's annoying is Ms. Spelman's making it a man/woman point in that juncture. Instead of unity, one gets a feeling of division. How about a human being and not a male or female?Spunjji - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
Women are still in a minority in these positions, especially in tech. You sound like when people say BLM is "divisive" - the divisions are there already, you're just asking that people not talk about them. FYI, that's not actually how things get better.Bagheera - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
I agree with Geoffrey. Spelman's comment came across as virtue signaling to me.There are injustice and divisions in society but the way to tackle them is in making fundamental systemic changes - this involves, yes, not furthering the division. Identity politics is a one-way street.
(and yes, BLM can be very divisive actually - and I say this as an ethnic minority who wasn't born in the US. BLM is well-intended but look no further than the black spokesperson from ACLU criticizing white moms who marched for BLM - that they are a "distraction" from the "real issue". may be just be happy people are supporting you instead of picking them apart for anything that doesn't sit well with you. this zealous pursuit for moral purity in modern "liberalism" is everything classical liberalism is NOT about.)
America is just a bunch of little tribes constantly at war with one another.
Samus - Saturday, April 17, 2021 - link
I felt that 'virtue signaling' as well, and that's a good way of putting it. Albeit a different role, you never see this kind of shit out of Lisa Su or even Mary Barra (GM) for that matter. Both of them are well aware they work in male dominant industries and that there is no need to point out the obvious. They are there to do a job and they do it exceptionally well without discussing gender roles.flgt - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
I found the comments off putting. Imagine that comment in reverse “I got a team of rockstars here, notice a theme, all guys...oh, and I have a couple women too”. The best way to approach this problem is like Lisa Su. Show up with top performance, crush these “rockstars” with measurable benchmarks, and drop the mic. It results in universal respect and admiration, unlike her ridiculous marketing.GeoffreyA - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
Lisa Su is in a league of her own. Her calibre, diplomacy, discretion, humour---10/10. Always a delight to listen to her talk. She even handles the marketing stuff in such a way that one can't help being charmed. "Ryzen 7000: Continuing Leadership and Destroying All Barriers to Performance. IPC +40%. Competition Cannot Keep Up."Bagheera - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
May be because Ms. Su is an actual engineer/intellectual AND is a native Taiwanese (same nationality as me); I don't think she finds any reason to partake in the circus that is American identity politics.I work for a major tech company and the amount of PC/identify politics BS is the one thing I often get very annoyed by.
GeoffreyA - Monday, April 19, 2021 - link
100%Oxford Guy - Monday, April 26, 2021 - link
She is a fine CEO but she also delivers boilerplate in interviews rather than anything interesting.Still, pro-company boilerplate is much less obnoxious than 'badass' overcompensation about being female and an employee.
Supercell99 - Sunday, April 18, 2021 - link
Sarah, Intels performace over the past 5 years speaks for itself. Pretending to that putting any thing but the most capable people in charge, will just cripple this company. China will destroy the U.S. in 10 year if we continue this non-sense.Oxford Guy - Monday, April 26, 2021 - link
'But this core group of women that I’m really excited about in leadership and technical badass roles out there. They are arm and arm with me and with our partners to crush it and bring so much performance and capability and commitment back to Xeon.'That's really awful. This kind of thing is sexism, which is ironic but expected.
Otritus - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
"70% of those deal wins, the reason listed by our salesforce for that win was AVX-512"When you are behind on price, performance, and efficiency, then the only reason left to purchase your product is for "features". AVX-512 is very useful to certain people, so of course the vast majority of your customers would be those kinds of people.
AdrianBc - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
Yes, this is exactly what I have also thought when seeing that answer.LiKenun - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
It’s also gotta be some powerful stuff if it makes up for lower clock speeds (due to throttling), inferior process nodes, and performance regressions due to Spectre mitigations.AdrianBc - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
For certain applications, it makes up.At the same number of cores and power consumption, Ice Lake Server, when executing AVX-512 heavy instructions, has only about 2/3 of the clock frequency of an Epyc 7xx3, but it has a double number of floating-point multipliers, so it can multiply about 33% faster than Epyc.
So for an application that is limited by the FP multiply rate, Ice Lake Server wins.
Nevertheless, at the same price an Epyc may have a more than 3 times larger L3 cache, so even for many floating-point applications the advantages of a higher clock frequency and of a much larger cache are enough to make Epyc win.
For general-purpose applications, the higher clock frequency and much larger cache ensure that Epyc always wins.
JayNor - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
those kinds of people would include anyone doing AI inference on the CPU, since Intel has targeted that with the 8 bit avx512 operations for several years.Why has AMD not added something like Intel's dlboost? Did they think AI is just a fad, or is it their position that everyone needs to be doing this on their GPUs?
Spunjji - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
I think it's mostly a matter of what they can implement and when. They have a GP-GPU portfolio, Intel don't (yet), so it makes sense that Intel would try to push these functions to the CPU and AMD wouldn't push so hard in the same direction.Spunjji - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
Ha, good point! It's always fun looking for the counterfactuals in these ebullient statements.waterdog - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
Ian, I usually enjoy your interviews and I understand that you can't be too much of a hard-ass or you don't get another interview but... Those weren't even softball questions; they were wiffle balls on a t-ball stand. It couldn't have been more saccharine if Intel had supplied the questions themselves. Also, no follow-ups to even attempt to break through the marketing corp-speak? You can do better.quiksilvr - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
All of their Intel interview questions are like this and not by choice. Intel would destroy Anandtech if they posted ANYTHING remotely controversial. The word Ryzen nor EPYC nor AMD is anywhere in this piece. They have to say "competitors" because it isn't allowed at all. Intel decideds, not Ian.Ian Cutress - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
Nope. I decided on the questions. These are all my questions. Intel got none of the questions in advance.Interviewing is a skill and a technique - you have to give a little to get a little, and understand that there's no point in asking questions that (a) annoy the interviewee so much they won't answer anything else, or (b) they simply won't answer at all because you've worked with them for 10+ years and you know what sorts of things they can and cannot say.
Also, anyone VP and up is going to be media trained for sure, and anyone worth their salt is going to have mentally gone through a number of best-tuned answers to expected questions. I don't expect anything less. It's my job as an interviewer to get them to think outside those expected questions and answer them from a different perspective such that the readership (consumers, customers, technical, non-technical) can get something out of it. As the interviewer you also have to go into the interview understanding why they think the way they do in order to design your questions around that frame of mind.
In this interview:
- I wanted to highlight Intel's changing message about system value rather than core value
- I got in the question about the future of Optane
- I got in the question about Ice Lake capacity and rollout
- I got in the question about Ice being so close to Sapphire
- I got in the question about segmenting out the quad-socket platform
- I got in the question about the relevance of AVX-512
- I got in the question about having so many segmented SKUs and why
- heck I even got a mention of immersion cooling!
- I also mentioned several times that Ice Lake was late
- I got in the question about the future of Xeon with Intel's tiling strategy
In the 30 or so minutes, from the sort of things I knew I wanted to talk about vs what I knew Lisa would talk about, this is really good set of answers from my POV. You're not going to get explicit next-gen details disclosed in an interview like this, it's neither the time nor the place. Nor are you going to get CPU architect-style answers either. I'd have to speak to Rebecca or Nevine or Sailesh or Ronak to do that sort of thing, and build a rapport with them. I've interviewed Lisa two or three times now, and each time I've learned a lot about how XMG are doing what they do and the reasons why. I might not agree with the direction, but helping people to understand what I understand is one of the reasons I do these interviews.
duploxxx - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
The interview was great and the way you asked was also good Ian, no joking or pitching anything there. But you got to agree that not all answers were so straightforward or even real on topic. They continue to talk around the story since they know from a base x86 perspective they are in trouble. Ice Lake 2s is not a good replacement for cooper lake R unless you talk about cpie4 and more mem controllers which the latter are again restrained sizing based on the SKU, 4s - 8s is a complete joke. All other topics are just part of the solution that are very specific cases. Not evne close to mass volume. Which btw you failed to mention that if they only delivered 100-200k CPU they are far from any realistic volume....OddballSix - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
Ian - you also got nothing back. Your give was all over the highway, and your get was a little bit of drift and you never even left the onramp.Almost every comment you are seeing is your community telling you: "There is nothing here, this was a waste of time for your readers."
JayNor - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
"- I also mentioned several times that Ice Lake was late"wow. that was original.
Qasar - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
and its the truth.JayNor - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
and it's the rear view mirror.They've shipped 30 million TGL chips, a family of 10nm p5900 chips, gpus, ice lake server chips and are sampling 10nm fpgas and next gen 10esf gpus, mobile, desktop and server chips.
They solved hard problems that many have given up on.
Qasar - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
point is ? rocket lake is a dud, most reviews show, and say this. intel is behind, it tried to do too much with 10nm, and it failed, then they kept lieing about it, kept saying its on track, more marketing BS. the only reason intel is even selling any cpus right now, is cause ryzen 3 is out of stock. only the fan boys and diehard fans, are staying with intel, quite a few people i know, could care less about intel and rocket lake, they are all waiting to buy ryzen 5000.most of this interview seems to be question dodging and PR fluff. intel trying to save face.
" they solved hard problems that many have given up on." yea and it took how long to barely fix 10nm ? how much money did they throw at it, and it STILL isnt where it needs to be, IF it was, rocket lake ( what ever name it would of been if it was on 10nm ) wouldn't of been back ported to 14nm. come on Jaynor, its obvious you love and worship intel, but its time to admit, intel has falling hard cause of its stumbles.
Spunjji - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
Proving the point that for some people, literally *any* mention of Intel's difficulties is too much.Ice Lake is not in "the rear view mirror", it's very much their present. I work for an organisation that just replaced our infrastructure, and we effectively got the same performing hardware we'd have got 4 years ago, although thankfully at a lower cost.
I don't know who the "many have given up on" is here, as their main competitors certainly have not given up. GloFo, I guess? Not exactly a benchmark for silicon manufacturing prowess.
Spunjji - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
I appreciate the effort. It's a difficult line to walk, and while I understand the disappointment a lot of people here have with the answers, I'm really not sure what you could have done to get different - let alone "better" - answers.I think people have this idea that you're supposed to go at it like a political journalist or something, not that most political journalists do that much anymore anyway... but I don't think they'd have enjoyed seeing the results of that any more than this.
Oxford Guy - Monday, April 26, 2021 - link
Everything in life is political.RSAUser - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
Your questions were fine, the problem is I could not finish this article as there was too much marketing BS in it rather than answering the actual question.The problem is the person you were interviewing, we don't care about her virtue signalling/Intel male/female, we care about the product and how Intel is going to handle competition and the move they will make to bring themselves out of their current issue (which includes to explain where they went wrong).
She's just a bad person to interview.
Bagheera - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
yeah I couldn't finish reading this. I was expecting a more technical interview I guess, since most of AnandTech's articles are quite technical (and good because of it)Mbpark - Saturday, April 17, 2021 - link
Ian,You are right on the money. And they have a handler who will follow up. I know this because I have done interviews with major media outlets (WSJ and several magazines in my space). They will not let you speak without that.
Fataliity - Sunday, April 18, 2021 - link
Yeah I liked that slip about immersion cooling, and the Ice Lake being viable for quite a bit after Sapphire Rapids launches (maybe delayed, or bad yields?)Optane was interesting too. Are they going to have a new manufacturer, or build a new fab for it or something?
There's some interesting information in it, just not said straight out.
Fataliity - Sunday, April 18, 2021 - link
Also, they are planning 4-5Q cadences on new products, which sounds nice as long as its not a refresh in everything but name again.Wilfred86 - Sunday, April 18, 2021 - link
I have a feeling Anandtech has been a bad boy with their early Rocket lake review, so now they need to be put back on the leash. Countless Intel articles (or should I call them advertorials) the last few weeks about essentially inferior products.hanselltc - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
Is it just me or are there a lotta Lisa's in top chip company roles? Lisa su, obviously, Lisa Pearce, head of graphics software, and here.hanselltc - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
Head of Intel* graphics softwarefogifds - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
Lisa was the top girl name in the US from 1962 to 1969. Given the amount of time in a career to make it to the top of a company, that's about right, mid 50's for age.Oxford Guy - Monday, April 26, 2021 - link
Apple Lisa was first.Unashamed_unoriginal_username_x86 - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
For an interview with a server CPU VP, there's an awful lotta Gamers in this comment sectionJayNor - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
"...really exciting stuff that we’re working on that allows us to use even more of the cores, even more of the portfolio, together. "Meaning what? Will Alder Lake chips be used as accelerators for Sapphire Rapids host chips?
OddballSix - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
A huge amount of this is marketing boilerplate bullhockey that you could put any name, any title, and any company in front of and still write the same thing. Half of this isnt even answering the question asked."What we’re doing here is we’re updating the platform, we’re updating the processor, and we’re updating a bunch of our portfolio all at once, which we think delivers a tremendous amount of customer value."
What the @#$! does that even mean? Its literally: "We are doing all the things that our jobs are to actually do at this company. All at once. Which customers should appreciate when we do it."
I gave up half way through, there was almost nothing in the first half that gave any real perspective on what Intel is intending to do doing differently than the recent past or better than anyone else.
rdubbs - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
Naysayers and fanbois aside, this interview is the most informative thing I've seen as far as detailing what customers (and especially hyperscalers) are actually looking for. Raw all-core performance matters, still, but this helps explain how Intel's still done so well even as they obviously lagged in some benchmarks or applications. Thanks Ian (and Lisa!).WaltC - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
Choice bits of Intel PR gobbledygook...;) I especially enjoyed her stating that "it's not so much when you execute that counts as much as when you do execute" spiel. Oh, man...nobody is buying that goulash. Intel would be much better served by talking about how far behind AMD they've fallen and what their general plans are to at least try and catch up--aside from burning through billions in cash. Yet Gelsinger, showing his age and dating the period of his experience in the company, hardly talks about AMD. Instead, he talks about Apple and nVidia's future ARM cpus! This is a blind spot that is absolutely huge. Apple dropped Intel because of Intel's continuing failure to innovate and move forward, and nVidia isn't in the running.Back in Gelsinger's day the Intel policy was not to even talk about AMD or even mention AMD as a competitor. It didn't work in Intel's favor then and it certainly won't now. I mean, does Gelsinger believe that if Intel doesn't mention how aggressively AMD is moving ever farther ahead of Intel--that the world will simply forget AMD? Gelsinger really better wake up and smell the coffee--it's much more likely that Intel will be forgotten instead, at this rate. Intel is a very strange company, imo.
I think Ian should use his Mr. Potato Head logo for these Intel articles. I'd also like to know if one of the conditions for the interview was that Ian not use the "AMD" in a direct fashion...;)
JayNor - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
You really think amd is ahead? FPGAs, avx512, dlboost, Foveros 3D tiles, CXL, PCIE5, Optane, silicon photonics, 5G infrastructure chips, autonomous vehicle technology, NFV.Intel has its own wafer process ... didn't throw in the towel when they encountered difficult problems.
sgeocla - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
Half of those are from Altera acquisition and AMD is acquiring Xilinx which is ahead in many aspects, including FPGAs, 5G and some chips for autonomous vehicle technologies.AV512 and dlboost are fringe tech not useful for the vast majority (95%+).
Optane is going away since it never was financially viable or got adopted, and Micron is selling the fab for it.
Foveros and 3D tiles are showcased for Intel to brag about since they are not financially viable to be in mass volume products, not for consumers and not yet for servers/enterprise, like AMD chiplets are. TSMC has equivalent or better 3D and active silicon bridge packaging technologies.
PCIE5 and CXL? They were years late even to PCIE4, so it remains to be seen since there are no products on the market.
Silicon photonics and quantum computers, I have to give you those. They are ahead in research.
The thing with Intel is that the show these things years before ready of financially viable so that people know "how wonderful is made" but when it comes time to actually execute and sell the products they are behind schedule, behind in performance and cost.
Spunjji - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
Foveros makes me chuckle, because their first product using it made it into 2 (two) products and has effectively been memory-holed since then.It'll be important one day, but they're quite clearly not there yet.
mdriftmeyer - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
If I want Quantum Computing I'll just partner with Honeywell.Qasar - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
" Intel has its own wafer process ... didn't throw in the towel when they encountered difficult problems. " and look where that got them. STILL using 14nm. and yet more claims about what and where they will be in 2-3 years, which i will only believe when it happens, and they deliver on their promises, which i doubt at this time, they will be able to.Spunjji - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
Blue crystals are better than green, we get itBagheera - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
Hi Patr!ck!Patr!ck Part!ck Part!ck Intel Patr!ck Lake.
Spunjji - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
AMD are only one of Intel's competitors, though, and the most direct - so it does make a lot of sense not to mention them. Why give them the PR? It's a no-win either way for Intel (mentioning them directly looks weak) so they might as well take the option that looks stupid but doesn't advertise their closest competitor.As for Nvidia and ARM, they probably are a more interesting target for Intel, because what AMD take away Intel can just as easily take back (same architecture!) whereas losses to ARM are losses they cannot easily recoup in a short timeframe.
Daniel71 - Thursday, April 15, 2021 - link
As Krammer says, sell sell sell, cue screams as one jumps out the window...thestryker - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
Lisa seems to have confirmed a lot of the educated guesses about the reasons why Intel hasn't lost more market share in the server market despite the fact that AMD/Arm options are clearly in the lead as far as the CPUs are concerned. It's all of the extra things they offer which the others currently do not, and I'd imagine the Xeon adoption by US cell carriers for 5G has opened a new revenue angle.I'm really mostly curious about the future of Xeon with the tiled manufacturing concepts they've been putting forward.
Thanks to all who put this interview together while it wasn't super in depth tech wise it still answered strategy questions which is what I expected given Lisa's position in the company.
The comments section on this interview makes me wonder if this is a bad side effect of getting an in depth look at RKL first.
flgt - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
Favorite part of the article was SGX enclave segmentation being about “choice” and “opportunity” for the customer.Spunjji - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
I don't know about you, but for me, the "opportunity" to be charged more for stuff that's already in the processor is one that I always value. 👍flgt - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
Lol, the only opportunity here is for Intel to extract money from your wallet.nandnandnand - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
Did they just top up the older Xiaomi story to bump this one down? Yes they did. Internet Archive, archive.today, and Google cache don't have it, but Bing's cache does:https://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=anandtech&d=...
https://archive.is/Jx9K1
It might be an automatic thing, but it's still kinda funny.
Ryan Smith - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
"Did they just top up the older Xiaomi story to bump this one down? Yes they did"Yep, I did. We had another piece scheduled to run today, but that was pushed back due to some delays. So I put the Xiaomi story back on top, as I'd rather heave the lead piece be a hardware review than an interview.
It's nothing that I try to be secretive about. We can shuffle the top stories arbitrarily, and often do so to keep things like reviews and major announcements at the top (ahead of things like live blogs and interviews), even if they're not the most chronologically recent.
nandnandnand - Friday, April 16, 2021 - link
Thanks, I've wondered about the story ordering a couple of times.croc - Saturday, April 17, 2021 - link
You can't blame the interviewee for playing 'softball'.SoLoFoNo - Saturday, April 17, 2021 - link
Absolutely and exclusively an advertising campaign from INTEL, and again via smoke candle: INTEL has always sent this lady ahead when they wanted to distract from the incompetence or rip-off of their customers. Whether it's because of her smile or whatever (...), I can't say. But if she had the slightest bit of self-respect, she wouldn't go along with it.... But anyway: she can - obvously it brings her a lot of money - BUT ANANDTECH MAY NOT SUPPORT BY PUBLISHING SUCH CAMPAIGNS or SMOKE CANDLE ACTIONS FROM ANYONE!!!Oxford Guy - Monday, April 26, 2021 - link
'But if she had the slightest bit of self-respect, she wouldn't go along with it..'Um... corporations aren't about that. They're about 'making' money. Advertising/marketing's entire purpose is to fool people into paying more for things than what they're worth.
It's always amusing to see people post from the fantasy point of view that corporations and their employees are doing some sort of altruistic exercise. All of the social benefits of corporations are the scraps we get in return for them taking more than us.
Oxford Guy - Monday, April 26, 2021 - link
They're basically a wealth redistribution scheme, a form of tricky regressive taxation. 'We' see it as a positive system because 'we' benefit from it (our 'benefactors' benefit mainly).phexac - Thursday, April 22, 2021 - link
Ian's point about knowing which questions to ask and not to ask is certainly true. The issue here is the interviewee. Why waste time on a marketing talking head. There was predictably absolutely no value to any of the answers. Don't degrade the quality of this site by interviewing worthless candidates.Nfarce - Friday, April 23, 2021 - link
She seems proud to have a nearly all-female staff leading the team. Isn't that so diverse and woke. Was the best candidate chosen for each position chosen based on merit and accomplishment or based on sex? The answer is obvious. Not than having a 90% female team is diverse or anything.Oxford Guy - Monday, April 26, 2021 - link
'The answer is obvious.'Not really. Given how huge the human population is, it doesn't seem all that difficult to find enough people to fulfill a particular quota who are well-qualified.