Thanks for the preview, and looking forward to the rest of the review. While looking to verify which chipset was used I noticed the link to specs in the article's specs table goes to the 11th, not 12th gen ark page.
It's interesting to see some of the drawbacks of using the desktop platform over the laptop one. Of course end users could likely replace these CPUs with Raptor Lake which comes out later this year rather than having to replace the whole element card as would otherwise be the case. I'm also a big fan of them putting 10g on this one with overall minimal price increase.
Z690 is capable of bifurcation so I wonder what the reasoning for omitting it is.
This thing a cool idea in concept but is awful in execution.
They are making their own 100% proprietary form factor and they can't beat legacy existing iTX solutions in a performance per volume comparison ahd have to use off the shelf notebook cooling solutions and just a bunch of random fans pushing hot air out of the chassis? If they have complete control over where components are going to placed and the size, shape of the form factor they can come up with something smarter than this.
I would like to see large passive heatsinks for the CPU, chipset and whatever else needs cooling on the 'compute board' and utilizing a front to back or top bottom (depending on how the case is designed / shaped) in a push - pull cooling configuration with large 92, 120, 140mm fans depending on use case. This is such a lazy, garbage design and a wasted potential for better form factor which the industry really needs.
This is 100% my reaction. The whole removal of the motherboard is cool but the way they've implemented it offers zero benefit. What are we supposed to take away from this lol
So you basically want a bigger case? That's the only way you'd get what you're looking for cooling wise because you have to account for the baseboard and power supply. I believe the DAN Case A4 is the only ITX case on the market smaller than the Intel NUC 11/12 Extreme (I'd assume there are probably knockoffs of this case which might be as well). As for the cooling there's a shroud which goes over the Element to draw air in from the back of the case for CPU cooling and the three fans at the top pull air out. There's nothing "random" about how they designed the cooling nor is it "off the shelf".
For CPU heavy workloads I definitely wish they'd have a better cooling solution as they seem limited by their choice to utilize the compute element. I think the only way to solve this would be by doing a completely custom board setup, but I also highly doubt this would be financially viable.
A larger case isn't need, just use the space more intelligently. The compute board is using a super compact heatsink with a blower fan (notebook cooling components), the case itself just has fans exhausting the hot air like any regular case. Its a lazy repackaging of components that already exist into a new form fact that offers zero benefits over what you can already accomplish with ITX.
Repackage all of it so you are using all that active cooling to push the air through a passive heatsink, easily accomplished given how little power this uses. The rest of the case size and cooling would be dictated by how much space, cooling, and power is required for the GPU.
You can't use top to bottom while using the compute element, and the PSU is located at the front of the case so you can't use front to back either. So you'd have to increase the width or height to be able to move the PSU out of the way for a front to back airflow which would make the case larger than it is now.
Only if you look at it in the narrow confines of how its setup now. Even with the compute element there are enormous ways you could achieve a top to bottom layout. PSU can go anywhere and be any form factor and completely external for lower power variants. Frankly I don't get why there are power cables at all side from for the GPU, power for the compute should be carried via the baseboard.
Name *one* way you could still utilize the compute element with the baseboard that also has an externally accessible M.2 slot with a top/bottom airflow setup. Now you want them to have a proprietary 650W gold PSU made for just the enthusiast class NUC? There are *no* low power variants of the *enthusiast* NUC as they have a ton of regular NUCs to fit that bill. The compute element adheres to PCIe so they should redesign that just for this unit to fit the extra power consumption?
It doesn't seem that you actually understand how any of the components for these units work and just don't like the setup.
If they are going to go through the trouble of making a custom baseboard for the compute module to plug into, it wouldn't have been that much more difficult to have the connectors positioned for the ATX and GPU power outputs on the PSU. Also likely could have flipped the compute board so that it was back to back with the GPU and then have a larger fan directly drawing air in from the outside of the case.
Flipping the compute element has been the most suggested thing ever since Ghost Canyon, and Intel has never addressed this as far as I know. In the case of the enthusiast NUCs this would be the easiest and most obvious change, but it hasn't happened. I can't think of a logical reason not to do it, but it must have something to do with the other applications they're used in at the enterprise level.
Name one? You want me to verbally draw you a mental image? Look at what systems like the NZXT H1 are able to do with top/down layout using ITX. The limiting factor is going to be where the ports exit the system because of the compute element but thats just another problem with how this is designed.
Is the PSU supplying anything other than 12v? I doubt it, and if it is it shouldn't be. And yeah design a custom one its not hard and Intel is a huge company. Its all proprietary anyway and we already know this is going to be insanely expensive anyway so they have no excuse.
What exactly is the point of them using PCI-e for the compute element again? Just so they don't have to design and manufacture a purpose built connector for their entirely proprietary form factor? It certainly adds zero functionality to the system.
nzxt h1 is one of the worst cooling cases around, that is what you call garbage. The aio would not be able to handle this chip. Air in from sides and out one 92mm fan is not a good design.
The cooling in nuc is actually very good for what it is. The shroud separates the hot air from the gpu from the cpu, which is usually the problem in itx cases. Even those that use pci-e riser to put graphics card on the other side, no one actually isolates the compartments, which ends up over heating some other component like an ssd on the back of the motherboard. But the extension itself is troublesome and has shown to be more hassle than it's worth.
I agree with a custom power supply. Look at what Apple did in the iMac pro. 8 to 18-core xeon, 5k display, Radeon Pro Vega 56, speakers, TB, etc, all from a super slim power supply built into the monitor. All one cable, no power brick. The archaic model of giant atx power supplies with thick cables going everywhere needs to go away.
Not really lazy, and it's not garbage. You wouldn't be able to design something this small yourself. What you want is something much larger, which is fine, but doesn't make this anything less.
Not to mention, there is no off the shelf parts that allow 3 nvme drives at full speed and 3 thunderbolt ports.
There's a pretty big gold on black skull sticker next to the blower fan (the one Intel has used since at least the Skull Canyon NUC in 2016).
Which, of course, is barely relevant on this model because it's inside a case. You can just barely see it through the mesh when you look at the photo that's focused on the inside. It's not like it's an acrylic panel.
It is idiotic. Gamerz!!! The people that have the money for this, don't want a skull on the front of their computer to ruin aesthetics. Doesn't matter if it is replaceable, it's wasted time and money.
I've owned a variety of the smaller NUC's, 2x Phantom Canyon (work/home), 2x Hades Canyon, and now NUC11 Ghost Canyon (Pro/Xeon). This has crossed a size line for me. I could easily bring Phantom/Hades on my bike commute, and even the Ghost is fine in a backpack, carry-on bag, or shoulder brief. But this? This is a PC. It's too large now. Not portable. No.
Going from 8 cores to next gen 8P + 8E and the efficiency is much worse XD "The Dragon Canyon NUC delivers significantly better performance at the cost of increased energy consumption - a 13% increase in scores for a 24% increase in energy consumption."
Sorry a small/modest liquid or even more silent cooling solution can be done in this size. And the soldered wifi is a turnoff because those standards change every 2-3 years far less than the lifespan of the rest of the system. For what this costs, and with how easy it is to build your own, they really have to tick all the user friendly and quiet boxes just right or their market is going to be pretty small.
I really hate the case but I really like the compute element. With integral 10ge and dual TB ports it's quite nice. Would love to see another OEM putting the compute element into a simpler chassis, hopefully at a lower price. I built an i7 rig, complete with storage and memory, for $1300 but then I had to add TB and 10ge expansion cards. Would prefer an integrated package.
"In terms of internals, the Dragon Canyon's updates are also tempered by over-reliance on the PCH for almost all of the I/Os of the PC. In comparison, the Beast Canyon NUC had a better spread with the Thunderbolt 4 ports directly off the CPU. Given that the Alder Lake platform supports USB 3.2 Gen 2x2, a couple of the 20Gbps ports would have also been welcome on the Compute Element."
You guys never test any of the ports, wifi, sound, or storage, so I guess we'll never know if it actually makes any difference in the real world. Also from the diagram, isn't the tb4 coming off of the cpu?
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thestryker - Thursday, February 24, 2022 - link
Thanks for the preview, and looking forward to the rest of the review. While looking to verify which chipset was used I noticed the link to specs in the article's specs table goes to the 11th, not 12th gen ark page.It's interesting to see some of the drawbacks of using the desktop platform over the laptop one. Of course end users could likely replace these CPUs with Raptor Lake which comes out later this year rather than having to replace the whole element card as would otherwise be the case. I'm also a big fan of them putting 10g on this one with overall minimal price increase.
Z690 is capable of bifurcation so I wonder what the reasoning for omitting it is.
Interu wa shinde iru - Friday, March 4, 2022 - link
so this is intel's new marketing strategy, take it to the forums!Dug - Friday, March 11, 2022 - link
There's no room would be my guess for no bifurcation.Operandi - Thursday, February 24, 2022 - link
This thing a cool idea in concept but is awful in execution.They are making their own 100% proprietary form factor and they can't beat legacy existing iTX solutions in a performance per volume comparison ahd have to use off the shelf notebook cooling solutions and just a bunch of random fans pushing hot air out of the chassis? If they have complete control over where components are going to placed and the size, shape of the form factor they can come up with something smarter than this.
I would like to see large passive heatsinks for the CPU, chipset and whatever else needs cooling on the 'compute board' and utilizing a front to back or top bottom (depending on how the case is designed / shaped) in a push - pull cooling configuration with large 92, 120, 140mm fans depending on use case. This is such a lazy, garbage design and a wasted potential for better form factor which the industry really needs.
lazarpandar - Thursday, February 24, 2022 - link
This is 100% my reaction. The whole removal of the motherboard is cool but the way they've implemented it offers zero benefit. What are we supposed to take away from this loldamianrobertjones - Thursday, February 24, 2022 - link
Cool. People will still buy it.My only annoyance is not knowing if you can use a 12th gen compute unit in the 9th gen chassis.
Operandi - Thursday, February 24, 2022 - link
Which people? The ones big into buying overpriced garbage? 'Cool' and good for them I guess.Samus - Friday, February 25, 2022 - link
Yeah...I see these things just FLYING off the shelves.lazarpandar - Friday, February 25, 2022 - link
What specifically did you think was cool about his postarashi - Saturday, February 26, 2022 - link
Probably the part where his employer's name appeared.thestryker - Thursday, February 24, 2022 - link
So you basically want a bigger case? That's the only way you'd get what you're looking for cooling wise because you have to account for the baseboard and power supply. I believe the DAN Case A4 is the only ITX case on the market smaller than the Intel NUC 11/12 Extreme (I'd assume there are probably knockoffs of this case which might be as well). As for the cooling there's a shroud which goes over the Element to draw air in from the back of the case for CPU cooling and the three fans at the top pull air out. There's nothing "random" about how they designed the cooling nor is it "off the shelf".For CPU heavy workloads I definitely wish they'd have a better cooling solution as they seem limited by their choice to utilize the compute element. I think the only way to solve this would be by doing a completely custom board setup, but I also highly doubt this would be financially viable.
Operandi - Thursday, February 24, 2022 - link
A larger case isn't need, just use the space more intelligently. The compute board is using a super compact heatsink with a blower fan (notebook cooling components), the case itself just has fans exhausting the hot air like any regular case. Its a lazy repackaging of components that already exist into a new form fact that offers zero benefits over what you can already accomplish with ITX.Repackage all of it so you are using all that active cooling to push the air through a passive heatsink, easily accomplished given how little power this uses. The rest of the case size and cooling would be dictated by how much space, cooling, and power is required for the GPU.
thestryker - Thursday, February 24, 2022 - link
You can't use top to bottom while using the compute element, and the PSU is located at the front of the case so you can't use front to back either. So you'd have to increase the width or height to be able to move the PSU out of the way for a front to back airflow which would make the case larger than it is now.Operandi - Thursday, February 24, 2022 - link
Only if you look at it in the narrow confines of how its setup now. Even with the compute element there are enormous ways you could achieve a top to bottom layout. PSU can go anywhere and be any form factor and completely external for lower power variants. Frankly I don't get why there are power cables at all side from for the GPU, power for the compute should be carried via the baseboard.thestryker - Thursday, February 24, 2022 - link
Name *one* way you could still utilize the compute element with the baseboard that also has an externally accessible M.2 slot with a top/bottom airflow setup. Now you want them to have a proprietary 650W gold PSU made forjust the enthusiast class NUC? There are *no* low power variants of the *enthusiast* NUC as they have a ton of regular NUCs to fit that bill. The compute element adheres to PCIe so they should redesign that just for this unit to fit the extra power consumption?
It doesn't seem that you actually understand how any of the components for these units work and just don't like the setup.
QChronoD - Friday, February 25, 2022 - link
If they are going to go through the trouble of making a custom baseboard for the compute module to plug into, it wouldn't have been that much more difficult to have the connectors positioned for the ATX and GPU power outputs on the PSU. Also likely could have flipped the compute board so that it was back to back with the GPU and then have a larger fan directly drawing air in from the outside of the case.thestryker - Friday, February 25, 2022 - link
Flipping the compute element has been the most suggested thing ever since Ghost Canyon, and Intel has never addressed this as far as I know. In the case of the enthusiast NUCs this would be the easiest and most obvious change, but it hasn't happened. I can't think of a logical reason not to do it, but it must have something to do with the other applications they're used in at the enterprise level.Operandi - Monday, February 28, 2022 - link
Name one? You want me to verbally draw you a mental image? Look at what systems like the NZXT H1 are able to do with top/down layout using ITX. The limiting factor is going to be where the ports exit the system because of the compute element but thats just another problem with how this is designed.Is the PSU supplying anything other than 12v? I doubt it, and if it is it shouldn't be. And yeah design a custom one its not hard and Intel is a huge company. Its all proprietary anyway and we already know this is going to be insanely expensive anyway so they have no excuse.
What exactly is the point of them using PCI-e for the compute element again? Just so they don't have to design and manufacture a purpose built connector for their entirely proprietary form factor? It certainly adds zero functionality to the system.
Dug - Friday, March 11, 2022 - link
nzxt h1 is one of the worst cooling cases around, that is what you call garbage. The aio would not be able to handle this chip. Air in from sides and out one 92mm fan is not a good design.The cooling in nuc is actually very good for what it is. The shroud separates the hot air from the gpu from the cpu, which is usually the problem in itx cases. Even those that use pci-e riser to put graphics card on the other side, no one actually isolates the compartments, which ends up over heating some other component like an ssd on the back of the motherboard. But the extension itself is troublesome and has shown to be more hassle than it's worth.
Dug - Friday, March 11, 2022 - link
I agree with a custom power supply. Look at what Apple did in the iMac pro. 8 to 18-core xeon, 5k display, Radeon Pro Vega 56, speakers, TB, etc, all from a super slim power supply built into the monitor. All one cable, no power brick. The archaic model of giant atx power supplies with thick cables going everywhere needs to go away.Foeketijn - Friday, February 25, 2022 - link
I would have upvoted if I could.Spunjji - Friday, February 25, 2022 - link
Fully agreed.Dug - Friday, March 11, 2022 - link
Not really lazy, and it's not garbage. You wouldn't be able to design something this small yourself.What you want is something much larger, which is fine, but doesn't make this anything less.
Not to mention, there is no off the shelf parts that allow 3 nvme drives at full speed and 3 thunderbolt ports.
jdq - Thursday, February 24, 2022 - link
The idiotic juvenile skull on the machine is sufficient reason to wait for the designers to grow up and make something less ugly.thestryker - Thursday, February 24, 2022 - link
I'm assuming you're referring to the RGB (which can be turned off) logo on the front which is replaceable and is thus user defined...evilspoons - Thursday, February 24, 2022 - link
There's a pretty big gold on black skull sticker next to the blower fan (the one Intel has used since at least the Skull Canyon NUC in 2016).Which, of course, is barely relevant on this model because it's inside a case. You can just barely see it through the mesh when you look at the photo that's focused on the inside. It's not like it's an acrylic panel.
Dug - Friday, March 11, 2022 - link
It is idiotic. Gamerz!!!The people that have the money for this, don't want a skull on the front of their computer to ruin aesthetics. Doesn't matter if it is replaceable, it's wasted time and money.
hubick - Thursday, February 24, 2022 - link
I've owned a variety of the smaller NUC's, 2x Phantom Canyon (work/home), 2x Hades Canyon, and now NUC11 Ghost Canyon (Pro/Xeon). This has crossed a size line for me. I could easily bring Phantom/Hades on my bike commute, and even the Ghost is fine in a backpack, carry-on bag, or shoulder brief. But this? This is a PC. It's too large now. Not portable. No.usiname - Thursday, February 24, 2022 - link
Going from 8 cores to next gen 8P + 8E and the efficiency is much worse XD"The Dragon Canyon NUC delivers significantly better performance at the cost of increased energy consumption - a 13% increase in scores for a 24% increase in energy consumption."
Spunjji - Friday, February 25, 2022 - link
E cores are only especially area-efficient - their performance-per-watt is mediocre.vegemeister - Friday, February 25, 2022 - link
36 W idle power lol. As much as an ultraportable laptop running flat out. Switching to a socketed desktop part was clearly a mistake.CyrIng - Friday, February 25, 2022 - link
Should we rather say 8 Pcore + 8 Ecore, short 8P + 8E , for a hybrid processor.James5mith - Friday, February 25, 2022 - link
Why is the best slot performance wise (CPU connected one on the back) the worst from a cooling perspective? That makes no sense.You can put in a PCIe5.0 NVMe drive in this slot! But you can't run it near capacity or it will melt.
thestryker - Friday, February 25, 2022 - link
All of the M.2 slots are Gen4.FXi - Friday, February 25, 2022 - link
Sorry a small/modest liquid or even more silent cooling solution can be done in this size. And the soldered wifi is a turnoff because those standards change every 2-3 years far less than the lifespan of the rest of the system. For what this costs, and with how easy it is to build your own, they really have to tick all the user friendly and quiet boxes just right or their market is going to be pretty small.bwj - Saturday, February 26, 2022 - link
I really hate the case but I really like the compute element. With integral 10ge and dual TB ports it's quite nice. Would love to see another OEM putting the compute element into a simpler chassis, hopefully at a lower price. I built an i7 rig, complete with storage and memory, for $1300 but then I had to add TB and 10ge expansion cards. Would prefer an integrated package.drbartsimpson - Wednesday, March 9, 2022 - link
Would like to see a comparison with the just announced Mac Studio with the M1 UltraDug - Friday, March 11, 2022 - link
"In terms of internals, the Dragon Canyon's updates are also tempered by over-reliance on the PCH for almost all of the I/Os of the PC. In comparison, the Beast Canyon NUC had a better spread with the Thunderbolt 4 ports directly off the CPU. Given that the Alder Lake platform supports USB 3.2 Gen 2x2, a couple of the 20Gbps ports would have also been welcome on the Compute Element."You guys never test any of the ports, wifi, sound, or storage, so I guess we'll never know if it actually makes any difference in the real world.
Also from the diagram, isn't the tb4 coming off of the cpu?